Some more points.
I think the team shouldn’t be bringing up merger talks in the future involving their projects due to conflicts of interest. Many spell holders I’ve spoken with are waiting to sell and leave Abra for good if the merger passes.
I am sitting on the Spell side in this discussion.
My spell position is currently worth roughly 83x my TIME position.
I think we will do fine regardless of the outcome of this discussion but after talking with Sifu I feel like the advantages outweigh the negatives in this decision.
I thank each and everyone of you for bringing your concerns to the table.
The revenue that would be added would allow to either buy back enough Spell from the market to continue emissions or proceed with other measures to guarantee MIM liquidity.
This would also get rid of the selling pressure that the emissions bring with them atm.
Maybe we could sell this part of the project at a later time for a higher price but that idea also omits the added flexibility we have gained with a larger treasury and revenue we can get through it.
If we would be in a market downturn we would also most likely have more difficulties raising larger sums.
The fundamental revenue of the combined projects should warrant the combined valuation target and make selling the token irrational.
Against it - I did not invest in Abracadabra but in Wonderland!
Instead:
(I) stop the leveraging option against WMemo on Abracadabra until people learn the risks of doing so and how to use it, and;
(II) stop buying WMemo at backing/below backing (let the market do it’s things)
If you think about it, we are in a bear market and the liquidation cascades are unfortunate, which were mainly due to targeted attacks and over leveraging for some. The above two actions should stop the downward pressure on Wmemo.
Continue building the treasury and promote long time hodlers. By doing so, momentum will come back pushing the price of Wmemo to new highs.
Plus the deal to merge will Abracadabra will leave Wonderland investors with a sour taste as it will be like locking in a quite a significant loss. Wonderland has always been a bet and mid - long term investments. The risks are high but the returns can also be great.
I would honestly invest a lot more in the project right now if the above is applied as Wmemo is undervalued right now and I believe in you (Daniele & team).
Keep up the good work and let’s continue with what you were doing with wonderland (minus buy backs and leveraging)
Let’s go frogs 
This should be posted on wonderland forum.
I agree 100% with you fren
No for me, I don’t see enough quantitative analysis or data to suggest this would be better for spell holders than continuing to incentivize Curve pools. Curve holders are ideal stakers for spell.
Why is there this belief that the merged entity will be stronger? Because we can „help“ each other. Abracadabra can help Wonderland and in return Wonderland can help Abracadabra.
But what does this in essence mean? It means that looking forward non market transactions can be done between a managed treasury group and a lending department. Transactions which under normal market conditions might not even take place. This makes a business model weaker and not stronger. Yes, we can have guidelines between these two departments and then we can have strict self applied rules and governance. And we can even have an audit. And Sifu and Merlin are strictly forbidden to have lunch with each other because of the Chinese walls which the combined entity will need. And if the treasury department refuses to help the lending department we will even need a CEO who then will decide in the best interest of whom? Team? Token holder? All? Or we just say, that we don‘t need all this?
And then there is a big elephant in the room. When the shit hits the fan and everybody needs MIM and the treasury has a bunch of non market priced assets. Who will prevent the team of collateralizing this betting platform or this NFT card game, or any other non marketable asset against MIM?
In my opinion we are giving away the advantages of decentralization if we merge. We centralize resources and then we centralize the decision making process and then we even centralize the business risk in one merged business model. All get‘s interconnected and the complexity rises. It sounds like it‘s becoming a traditional banking institution. We actually should do just the opposite and keep all protocols as independent as possible.
I do understand that Wonderland is in dire need of help and I am also willing to help. But then in form of an non interest loan, of lend out incoming cash for two months or whatever.
Disclosure: I hold only SPELL.
I don’t agree with the proposal, big no for me. There are other ways to mitigate the bots pushing the price down. One of the its to add a tax event fee for those bots that pump and dump and buy back because they know that there is gonna be a buy back to push the price to the backing price:
1.º Stop the backing price purchase its not fair to the long time holders that didnt overleaverage and just (3,3) for all this months.
2.º Add a tax fee to sell for example 16/20 % to sell if you buy and then sell it before 7 days for example after that time there is no sell fee. (Could be more time to hold until you don’t have a tax fee to sell, this is just an example) and those fees would go to all the time/wmemo holders.
3.º Stop the Cauldron until a full time solution its available.
So Defilama says that 726M of the TVL in Wonderland is “Staking” So the treasury right now is almost only Time? Am I misunderstanding something?
Why should Abra buy a treasury like that?
Did Wonderland try to buy back all the Time at the expense of the Treasury?
NO we should not merge the 2. They are separate projects and we will lose trust of all investing we just sell out everyone who owns time.
I think we can all agree that having a shared set of facts would be helpful here. The value proposition hinges in the detail.
If you analyse the WonderLand treasury you’ll see it’s value is fairly open to interpretation. Firstly, there seems to be a lack of transparency and that there are apparently further assets (held in a private wallet) that actually belong to the treasury? And secondly, out of $409m total, $172m, 42% of their holdings from the announced wallets, are comprised of memo/wmemo which are difficult to value. The remaining assets are mainly stablecoins, which could never justify a premium, for obvious reasons. The proposal states that 98b spell would be used to facilitate this. At the time of writing 98b spell has a Market value of $800m; what’s the thinking behind such a premium?
We then have to examine the strategic implications of this. Wonderland is a fork, has an inactive github and appears to offer no benefits from a technical pov. The teams are shared so there’s no benefits from an HR point of view either.
Many of the financial issues could theoretically be resolved but in reality, due to the $time teams public statements about RFV and backing, Wonderland investors aren’t going to accept less then they could get through a straightforward liquidate and disperse arrangement. Abra holders should never accept flooding the market with cheap spell just to pay a premium on stable coins they don’t have a strategic use for, beyond yield farming with. It makes a deal tricky at best.
All that said, Wonderland has been very profitable for spell so far, is our biggest client and it would be nice if further discussions could be had in good faith and that neither community should feel railroaded into accepting a deal that they don’t feel is in their interests.
keep the projects separate. voting on both sides ensures that only mutually beneficial deals go through.
that being said, wonderland X abracadabra should collaborate more often through proposals
and voting from both DAOs.
This would allow both communities to feel more in control of the direction of their dao, being able to vote for or against specific collaborations.
Staked spell revenue share was recently diverted to purchase bribes in order to facilitate mim adoption,
my proposal for collaboration is for wonderland being an investment dao to purchase the bribe for abracadabra from wonderland treasury in exchange for a fair amount of spell tokens.
this would keep the spell tokens within the frog ecosystem and wonderland buys the dip on a cornerstone of defi. becoming a majority token holder of spell at a deep discount and tremendous upside potential as well as protocol revenues.
as for the spell tokens going to wonderland, i feel better knowing wonderland treasury won’t dump on us and the value stays with the long term holders of frog nation, (wmwmo holders benefit long term)
and as for wonderland currently crashing, boom and bust appears to be the nature of a rebase token, the ponzinomic element is that if you hold all the rebases through the crash, next boom you get to be the whale or at-least closer to being one id say continue forward with the experiment, allow it to stand on its own two legs and a core community of supporters will stay and should rightfully reap the benefits. this will continue to happen and that core community will continue to grow.
TL;DR:
2.keeping the autonomy of both projects would sit better with most investors due to being able to veto or submit proposals on when how and what to collab on
4.my proposal which is mutually beneficial to both and DAOs
I also agree with this. Please don’t punish SPELL holders through dillution. Some of us bought SPELL close to ATH and it has tanked 78# from ATH, with billions in new mint of SPELL will send SPELL price to lower than its ATL. Retail investors will loose 95 to 99%.
Crypto market actors aren’t rational lol, especially (3,3) apes. But I’m currently sitting here feeling somewhat smooth-brained about what I’ve written in this discussion. I obviously made some simplistic assumptions about the tokenomics of the emission, only considering the worst case scenario. How many people choose to sell makes all the difference - the opportunity is getting a potentially huge revenue stream REALLY cheaply. The ‘potentially cheap’ part should be articulated more.
The problem is market share is still diluted, meaning the treasury is good for the protocol but does nothing for its token holders because the incoom gets split amongst more stakers.
Additionally, the market obviously doesn’t value the Wonderland DAO or its treasury very highly because the token keeps dumping below backing/treasury valuation, so it wouldn’t necessarily contribute to the real valuation of the merger.
I can’t even begin to calculate the risk/reward. Especially the risk, which is the biggest issue here. But we should all calm down and patiently wait for the docs mentioned in the AMA.
I’m leaning towards a “No” vote but trying to be open minded.
Concerns:
Switching from farming incentives (which have already been reduced by 72.2%) to protocol owned liquidity model has some issues.
We currently have incentivized $2.6B of MIM liquidity in the MIM3CRV pool, that has been very reliable in maintaining its size. The treasury we would get instead would be substantially less. And a transfer of value out of MIM3CRV if its rewards were cut could decimate the peg and liquidity. If a hybrid plan were in place that continued some bribes (with treasury assets, or revenue) to incentivize MIM, it would be more to my liking.
Instead of continuing our path of emissions reductions which has been cut so far up to this point (and may be at a point where it’s not feasible to continue cutting), we will be realizing 100% of the inflation of those emissions, had they never been cut. All at once. In order to sell Spell at a low price for a diversified treasury.
Benefits:
Merging the team I see as the real benefit here, consolidating the two into one unified direction. If this proposal doesn’t pass, maybe a follow up proposal could be made to free up funds in order to hire/expand the team.
Final note:
Even though my perceived concerns may outweigh benefits, I do appreciate the work, ideas, and good intentions put into this proposal. Regardless of outcome.
Coinbase is currently the biggest market for SPELL, doing $21M today. Their listing criteria are stringent. By merging these entities, we are endangering the presence of SPELL on Coinbase, which is a bad idea, it’s one of the main retail places to buy the token.
I like the idea to pay out wMemo holders from the treasury, unwinding a good deal of the protocol.
Endangering the legitimacy of SPELL and MIM could destroy the protocol and cause a crypto wide problem. SPELL is functioning just fine, having it be less complicated rather than more is ideal. Clear and clean, but we’re getting muddy and dirty now.
No! This is stupid, the whole market is down and it could tank further, it’s not like wonderland exists in a vacuum.
You’d be overcomplicating things unnecessarily. Prices go up, prices go down that’s the way equities work all the time.
You made the mistake, but the people staking don’t really see it as a problem as long as the rebasing continues.
With the news of fraudsters and grifters, I am strongly against anything to do with Wonderland.
A BIG BIG NO. Please do not even propose this.
No. Why should SPELL holders baylout MEMO holders? There’s a reason some of us invested in Abracadabra and not in Wonderland.
